Points of Reference

[Fletch]

My Wednesday night Bible Study is going through the book titled "Who is the Holy Spirit". Last night we were going through the section on the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of Revelation and Understanding (Wisdom). The study used Ephesians 1:15-19 and 1 Corinthians 2:6-16. We had gone over the text several times as well as supporting Scripture and been in deep discussion about the leaders of the age not understanding God's Word. When one of the ladies says "Dave, none of this makes any sense to me." So, of course I ask what she was having difficulty understanding. She says, "I think you're using a different Bible then I am." I'm now a little confused as the other 5 people have been tracking with me for an hour.

So, I ask, "What translation are you using?" She replies, " NIV." Now I seriously confused as I've been reading from the NIV as well. So, I read through 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 again, then ask if that's how hers reads. She replies, "No", and proceeds to read what her Bible has. It was like WOW, that's not even close. Now I'm even more confused, and ask to she her Bible. Sure enough 2 Corinthians 2:6-16 read just as she was saying.

What a teaching moment God had just presented me. A prime example of how those who are not Children of God perceive and understand God's plan for their Salvation. If you don't have the proper reference it makes ZERO sense. It might as well be in a different language. Even though we were all reading Gods word, we had totally different points of reference. One made sense to 6 of us but one was on the outside looking in.

1 Cor 2:9 NIV

9 However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"

[demonhunterfan]

which is why it is so vitally important that we allow the heart of Christ in us to help us to listen, to see, and know what those we minister to need from us. Sadly, in my 'church' experiences, even tho I thought I was sharing my heartfelt pains and anguish at times, all I got was judgement and no real love. 'Twas not for nothing tho, as I had serious issues of judging others myself, and God used those instances to teach me to listen, to be more compassionate, and truly forgiving. Lessons can be really hard at times, but if we are willing to learn them, the difficulties are soon forgotten, and when we then practise what we've learned.......the angels rejoicing 'n @

Later and God bless.

[george53]

Dave, What is NIV? I may not be REAL up on my bible stuff, but your reply doesn't seem to be confusing to me. NO ONE knows what GOD's plans are for us, individually,are. He seems to guide us thru our everyday lives on a daily basis. At least he does me. Why was she confused? It makes total sense to me. Guess I'm just lucky, I've never not made sense of things that make sense.

[Fletch]

George, NIV or New International Version was until last December the last translation of the Bible that was translated from the ancient Greek text. It has become the predominate translation as it's in more modern English but still true to the original text. There have been a couple of translations since NIV was conceived in 1965, but they have been paraphrased versions of the Bible. They are somewhat easier to read but loose some of the impact of Gods word due to not being an actual translation

The confusion was over the fact that she had turned to the book of Corinthians but to 2 Corinthians instead of 1 Corinthians. So the discussion we were having over the text from 1 Corinthians made absolutely no sense to her. Her point of reference to understanding what we were discussing was as far off as Believers and Non-Believers understanding God's plan of Salvation.

To those of us who are being saved the message of the Cross is Eternal Life, to those who are lost it's foolishness. All based on different points of reference.

[demonhunterfan]

Dave, to me, George's not knowing what NIV meant is, to me, one of the problems with 'the church' today. 'The church' speaks a different language to 'outsiders' (and I aint callin' you an outsider George, thanks for the opportunity) instead of speaking their language, and thus, there is no communication, and no results. Sorry that I am so quick to such extreme conclusions, and seemingly leaving The Holy Spirit out of the mix, and again, my expecting church people to all be perfect, etc, but many times when I have been reaching out for help, and have seen others do the same, all we get are scripture quotes from the 'church' people. I always try to avoid that unless I feel they would understand, or if I am led to share a particular scripture I then follow it up, or precede it, with my own actual experience with God using that particular scripture to help me. I strive to be sensitive to the other person's needs and trust The Holy Spirit to provide the words.

A tragic example of 'church' talk and zeal can be seen in the movie "The end of the spear", where missionaries were so consumed, even tho sincere in wanting to share The Gospel with a tribe of natives that they did not take the time to learn the language of the natives, and wound up dead--with spears thrust thru them. True story, good movie, in which God and HIS ways do triumph after the initial tragedy. Seems to me that it was promoted well, but when people saw it, and the truth of not trusting and waiting on God instead of rushing ahead like so many of us do........I believe it cast a bit of a bad light on Christians. Just my opinion, mind you, but something we need to be shown at times I guess, to be reminded of our complete dependency on HIM.

Later and God bless.

[Fletch]

John, it's like I always tell the technicians I use to instruct. Unless you're 100% positive the person you're speaking to understands the verbiage you're using, speak in normal language don't use "Tech Speak".

There is a book by George Barna, of The Barna Research Group, called Revolution, the primes of the book that Christians are leaving the "Established Church" in droves. The major reason being the Organized Religion has left them wanting for a true connection to God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. That churches have gotten so far from the ideas brought forth in the Acts of the Apostle. What modern translations call the Book of Acts.

Being the son of a minister, I have a different perspective then a lot of others. I remember when breaking bread with members of the congregation was the "normal" thing to do. Church business was conducted on Wednesdays and in between services on Sunday. Pastors, were available for emergency call 24/7/365 but, if they were out with their family or friends it had to wait umtil them were back home to get the call.

Now a pastor is expected to be available 24/7/365. There is no personal time for the pastor. They are expected to be available by cell, email, text, etc and if they aren't then they end up answering to the Board of Elders.

Unfortunately, most people no longer attend church to be refreshed or restored. They're there to be entertained, the music better fit what they think is appropriate or there's hell to pay. Pastors and Elders no longer hold each other accountable for their actions. Because it might mean that someone might get their feeling hurt. Church has become PC, and by being PC it's ok to turn your back on your fellow man because someone else can help them. We'll listen to your sorrows and pain but only so we can use it for gossip around the punch bowl at the next potluck.

We'll go out of our way in church to ask someone else "How are you?" But, we really don't care one way or another the burden you're carrying. Because, after all that would mean we'd have to become involved in helping you through your struggles. Then we wonder why so many Christians are leaving the church.

For many years I've felt Gods call on my life to move into full time ministry. We've laid the ground work, even gone so far as to partner up with a couple if pastors who I've served with in the past. Every time, they've proved they weren't ready to move in the direction that I felt God was leading us. We've stepped away from those situation and watched from afar as God has reclaimed His Church. These pastors realized to late that this was not about them or the high office of Pastor, or the weekly attendance ot the weekly offering, it was all about God and advancing His Kingdom here upon the earth.

All of that to say that John you are correct the "Church" has let us down, and as long as people set the direction of the church it will continue to let us down. Only, when we allow The Spirit of God to lead our actions can the church truly become the Bride of Christ.

I pray daily that when God does allow us to move forward with the church plant. That I will be the type of Pastor that allows the Spirit of God to lead the Church so it can become the light that God needs it to be.

[george53]

Dave, as long as YOU remain true to HIM,I wouldn't worry to much about trying to be a good Minister, HE'LL just naturally MAKE you one. Your love for HIM an your fellow men is obvious, an we ALL know that HE already knows whats in our hearts, so, I feel he WILL bless you with the guidance you'll need to be an obedient servant. GOD BLESS YOU and ALL your efforts.

[demonhunterfan]

I hear what you're saying Dave (see how crazy I am? ;D--I'm reading words on my 'puter & 'hearing' things ) Seriously tho, been there, done did that. I ran sound for a church in town here, for 2 years. Got involved a bit in Sunday School and occaisional 'Bible' studies. This particular church's biggest thing seemed to be 'book study classes', always getting the latest book and having a lengthy 'study' of it......."Love & Respect", "Purpose Driven Life", etc. I was so tempted to leave the sound booth when they were 'promoting' the "Purpose Driven Life" event, to go up in front of the congregation and tell them "Many of you do not need to sit in one another's houses for 40 days and discuss this book! You need to get up off your fat asses and DO what you have heard preached to you Sunday after Sunday!" But I just sat back there, being a good little sound guy, making sure everyone could hear all the juicy details about how to get the book, sign up for meetings, etc.

I grew so much from the persecution I suffered in this church. I did go up front at times during 'Time of Sharing' and I spoke boldly as The Holy Spirit moved me-- whether the peeps in the pews liked it or not, and it was obvious at times they didn't. So glad that God had gotten me to that point that I didn't care if they liked the truth, I simply said the words HE provided and trusted the rest to HIM.

Dave, I believe that what we are doing right now, here, and in our personal daily lives, including your laying the groundwork trying to partner up with those pastors.......I believe that all of these things we are doing is full time ministry. When you say that

These pastors realized to late that this was not about them or the high office of Pastor, or the weekly attendance ot the weekly offering, it was all about God....

Well done Brother! One heart at a time--- hopefuellie if they truly realized it was all about God, maybe something will change. A young lady God used to help me with my sex addiction, Karlie, a sex addict like myself who had given up having sex with everyone in town a year before I met her , and had also given her life to Christ years before, always said to me that she felt as you do, knowing God was calling her into a personal ministry, to which I always told her--"Karlie, you are doing that now! You are ministering to me!" ....and no, we never had sex God saw to that-- blessed us both with a true friendship and true love. HE still lets us see each other on occaision so we can tell each other what HE has been doing in our lives, and funniest thing! it's always so similar! Praise God!

But, yeah Dave, we are doin' the full time ministry right now! We kinda got our hands full just dealin' with Brother George! ;D ;D ;D
Just kidding George You knows I loves ya man! and what a minister George is 'over there' on the MCM!

So be encouraged Brother Dave, you've already done did let The Spirit of God lead you to start up this forum, and God knows who's been helped by it........I know I have been.

Later and God bless

[george53]

Dave, ya know ol John( he IS older'n me!) has gotta good point there about gettin up there an tellin folks how it is, whether they likes it or not! The TRUTH can be quite a revelation to some. The problen being they don't know it yet.( the TRUTH) That was a REAL downer for me, to see how many "church" folks still don't know the TRUTH. I think you've done a GREAT service to your fellow modelers by starting up this site. You minister here every day so far, and I come to hear, listen and share, if possible. I for one am GLAD you did it. I DON'T go to church at all anymore, but I have my reasons,and THIS is a VERY encourageing place to be for me. It's not my church, but at least it's NOT full of hypocrites who come just to feel good about themselves. One time my cousin, who just happens to be my pastor, told me I was ministering,just by telling my story. Guess I didn't realise it, but just by telling the TRUTH, I 'spose I was. You are an honest man Dave, and I think HE will bless your ministry with MANY followers as long as you keep doin wat your doin, after all you DO have the GREATEST teacher who EVER lived! GOD BLESS you Brother.

[Fletch]

Guys, I am humbled by your word.

John, for the most part "churches" use the latest, greatest programs to put butts in the seats. You know the theory, more people in the seats the bigger the offering. Right or wrong it's what drives a church. I once worked with a pastor who told me and everyone else that worked in this ministry. "The Gospel is free and preach it freely, however it takes money to run a ministry." As much as it sucks it's the reality of the day.

Pastors and Elder/Deacon Boards need to focus on the impact of the Ministry not the butts in the pews. Are they changing lives or putting on a good show? Churches today are just as full of those who would have aligned themselves with either the Pharisees or the Sadduccees as in Jesus' day. They still don't get that the Temple that Jesus said he would raise in three days was not the building. Most today still don't understand that they are the church not the building. They come to feel good about themselves and on Monday when a co-worker asks, "What did you do over the weekend?" They can say, "Well I went to Church yesterday." Like it's a badge of honor, not the humbling experience of being in the prescience of the Lord that it should be.

The church we attended until a couple of years ago is located in a part of town that has the economic range from homeless to millionaires. The goal of the church was bring in more "young families" as they figured it would help revitalize the church. The problem is the neighborhood around the church is mostly dual income unmarried or alternative lifestyle couples. None of which fit the goal the church wanted to achieve. The church had a very alive ministry to the homeless. But, a few of the families with younger children made such a big deal about the homeless attending the same service they were attending it divided the congregation. As those of us who were fed up left the church they gained more control. Now, even though they have a store room full of food and clothing it can only be given out on Tuesday and Thursday. No on can receive help on Sundays. When I heard this I was stunned, I call the Pastor and ask "What part of Sheep and Goats does your congregation not understand?" Quoting Matthew 25:31-46. His response shows the control that congregations hold over their pastors. "Those passages have always been my personal mission statement." "But, that's what they decided."

There is a bumper sticker running around here in Portland, you may have seen it as well. It's a quote from Gundhi. "I like your Jesus, I do not like your Christians, they are not like your Jesus!" The first time I saw it I was offended. Then as I thought more about it I realized what a condemnation that statement was. The worst part is it's 100% correct. We can't expect others to be Christ like if we aren't.

The good news is God forgives us, otherwise the prince of darkness would own us all. Jesus paid the ransom for our souls, we've been reconciled because of his actions upon a cross.

Guys, there is one verse that should guide what we do each and every day and that is Acts 1:8b "...and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
I would ask you where is your Jerusalem? God has made it very clear to me if you can't minister to "your Jerusalem" you'll never be able to minister to your "Judea and Samaria" and the rest of the world.