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Post by demonhunterfan on Aug 22, 2009 3:13:02 GMT -8
I was having a bite to eat with a couple friends last nite and one of them, Ed, was telling us about some of his family gatherings. He was sharing about things he didn't like about some of them. He said one of his relatives is "a born again Christian" and it was obvious that Ed didn't care for this relative's sharing their faith. That is not the point in my writing this, although I am praying for Ed and his relative. My point-- my question to you all is in regards to that phrase "born again Christian" . To me, now that I've been born again, some 13 years ago, that phrase, to me, sounds redundant. I mean, if indeed, we are 'born again' as Jesus spoke about to Nicodemus, are we not-- do we not become, a Christian? I'll have to do a little studying on this, but when I'm in doubt, I tend to always defer to Jesus's Words, and them only. When HE told Nicodemus "Ye must be born again......to enter The Kingdom..."-- that's enough for me. However I also remember somewhere in Acts, I believe, is a passage about the disciples first being called 'Christians' in Antioch? As I've been meditating, and praying on this, God has shown me that this little phrase-- 'born again Christian' can be, for me anyhow, a way to start a discussion with the person who said it, wether they be 'born again' or not. As I tend to see things more 'black & white', and literally most times, I can see how God would use my hearing someone saying "born again Christian" to speak to the person, or persons, saying it and planting The Seed into their lives. God created me in my mother's womb, and then she raised me to speak correctly-- " WIN-TER! -- it's win- Ter!, not 'winner'-- there is a T in the word, John!" (oh, I had it rough growing up  ) Like I said, I'll be doing a bit of studying, but I'm wondering what you all think about this? And may God bless our sharing our thoughts on this with each other, and all those others who say it.  |
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Post by 84vanagon on Aug 22, 2009 18:36:55 GMT -8
Interesting topic, John.
Being real new to this I take it as;
When we are fresh from the womb (and usually shortly there
after) we are baptized, still untouched and unswayed by the years of sin and evils that will be all around us, still pure, chaste.
After a fashon there are choices to be made. Good, indifferent, bad and evil.
For the most part most of us hang in the indifferent to good range, with occasional slips into bad.
I feel that in being "born again", we are taking the first steps towards Jesus to help us become as pure and chaste as we can
as adult human beings. We probably can't attain the pure babe
status, but only with Jesus' help can we TRULY better ourselves.
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Post by Fletch on Aug 22, 2009 22:24:53 GMT -8
IIRC, the term "Born Again, Christian", was coined by those doing their best to remove any and everything about God and Christ from society. It was never meant to be a term to describe the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. But, instead a derogatory term applied to those who were answering the call of God's Spirit.
Instead the term has evolved, if you will, to describe those who understand the conversation Jesus and Nicodemus had and have chosen to align themselves with Christ.
Just one more time where a negative has been turned into a positive by the Word of the Lord. Try as they may they will never be able to sever the ties between God and His people.
Peace.
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Post by davewahl on Sept 6, 2009 15:28:00 GMT -8
I personally feel that if you have to tell someone that you are born again, you may very well not be. I think that if you can't tell a believer by looking at them and their action and words, You may need a wakeup call. I personally think that actions speak louder than words. Just by my actions and words, people can see there is something different about the way My life is.
Dave Wahl
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Post by hotrodtom on Apr 9, 2010 0:42:46 GMT -8
I am liking this board more and more!
Excellent question, for sure!
The term born again CAN be answered in the gospel of John, in the very passages that you refer to about the conversation between Christ and Nicodemus.
Nick (taking liberty here) is asking Jesus how can a man crawl back into a mothers womb and be born again, but Christ is answering him in a higher level.
The "born again" aspect of Christendom is the spiritual rebirth. You must be born again of the spirit (to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and spirit as spoken of in the Old Testament). See John 3:5
The real difference of a Christian "born again" believer is in John 3:6.
We are physically (in the flesh) born once, but spiritually born twice (once under the curse of sin, and again under the gift of salvation).
We were born in sin, but through the work of Christ's shed blood for the atonement of our sin on the cross of calvary, and our acceptance of our sin-nature and his redemption for the penalty of that sin, we are "born-again" by that salvation, or redemption.
To be redeemed means to be bought and paid for. Christ (who knew no sin and was not born under the sin-nature), paid a debt that he did not owe, because we (sinners) owed a debt we could not pay.
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Post by olskoolrodder on Aug 17, 2010 21:44:23 GMT -8
Man....I MISSED this place! ;D
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Post by Kit Karson on Aug 17, 2010 23:24:18 GMT -8
Man....I MISSED this place! ;D And, we've missed you, as well, Brother! Praise the Lord! You have quite a testimony!! |
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Post by olskoolrodder on Aug 18, 2010 11:33:02 GMT -8
You made me done blush,Brother ;D And as fer the testimony-I hain't even had the gumption to ever post a teeny tiny fraction on how good He is! ;D ;D ;D It's like our new Pastor-Brother always goes around saying,"He's a good-good God and satan's a bad-bad Devil",LOL!  |
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Post by parsontim on Aug 19, 2010 17:27:08 GMT -8
You made me done blush,Brother ;D And as fer the testimony-I hain't even had the gumption to ever post a teeny tiny fraction on how good He is! ;D ;D ;D It's like our new Pastor-Brother always goes around saying,"He's a good-good God and satan's a bad-bad Devil",LOL! I always like to say "Ain't God Good"!!! My southern must be a showin. If he will save a wretch like me, sure nuff, He will save whosoever! Amen? |
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Post by olskoolrodder on Aug 20, 2010 10:05:07 GMT -8
Amen!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by hotrodtom on Oct 26, 2010 11:53:16 GMT -8
I have been thinking (dangerous for sure) about this post lately, and thought that maybe I could add a little bit to dispel a "doctrinal" issue about being born again, or being saved.
There are those of the Chistian faith that beleive in the doctrine of Calvanism. The essence of this doctrine is pre-destination, or, that God decided before the creation of the world whom he would save, thus in Calvanist speak, "The elect". The unfortunate side of this doctrine is that there is NO security of your salvation, because no matter what you may feel or believe, you will only find out when you stand before the judgement seat of Christ whether you were one of the "elect".
This doctrine trully flies in the face of the author of The Bible, which cannot lie. IF God decided before the creation whom he would save, then Christ's work on the cross was NOT what the Old Testament prophets were poining to, and it was NOT the saving work that the ew Testament attests to.
Looking at several "1st's" here:
Take a look a Genesis 1:1 - In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Now, look at Genesis 1:26 - And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness...
This is a critical point, in that this is the first reference of the Trinity. The "us" spoken of here is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Now, let's move on to John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, And the Word was God.
This attests to the Trinity again. The Word is Christ the son, the Word was God is the Holy Spirit in teaching, leading, and attesting to the son, the Word was God is God the Father.
The three have always been one, and only seperated ONCE, and that was at the cross of Calvary.
Now, look at 1st John, verse 1 - That which was from the beginning...
The Trinity has always existed. There was no need for a pre-creation covenant between the Father and the Son. This is where Calvanism starts to crumble apart. We read in John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Reading on in verse 17, THIS is where Calvanism trully falls flat. John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him migh be saved.
The critical words here are "whosoever", "believeth', "through him", and "saved". A good Calvanist would tell you that believing is a work, and works will not save you. While this is partially true, in that you cannot work your way into heaven, by holding to this beleif, one denies the work done by our saviour and the very thing that God calls us to do: Believe in the Son. IF God "elected" who he would save before he created them, then he made himself a liar when he inspired the words (through the Holy Spirit, From the mouth of God, Spoken by the Son of God) of John 3:16 & 17. God cannot lie. There is no shadow of turning or evil in his presence.
I may have just ruffled a whole bunch of holy feathers, but this is the FUNDAMENTAL basis for the plan of salvation. Without it, the Romans Road (Romans 3:23, Romans 5:8, Romans 6:23, Romans 10:9&10) is a nullified event. You might also include Romans 3:3-7, which speaks of the righteousness of God, and how he judges the world with righteousnss, and not vengeance.
There is much discourse to be had on this, and several may passionately hold to this doctrine of man known as Calvanism. It is NOT a doctrine of God, and actually denies the work of the trinity and the righteousness and love of a loving creator.
Comments?
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Post by Fletch on Oct 26, 2010 22:09:14 GMT -8
Wish I could argue with your statements Tom but I can't. Calvinism like any other theology brought forth by man is just that Theology of man. As a Christian or better yet a Follower of Christ we need only present His Word as the one and only true Theology. To add to or remove from God's Word to fit our theology not only does His word a great disservice but does God a great disservice as well.
The problem with religion and theology is it is our attempt to put God into a box we are comfortable with. If we can manipulate God to fit our ideals and convince enough others that our ideology is correct then we can establish our theology as the true interpretation of God's word.
Unless a church is willing to teach the Bible and set aside theology and allow the Holy Spirit to lead it's actions they are not a true Church of God. Such Churches are almost impossible to find as it doesn't seem to take long before someone exerts enough influence to turn the church from a Godly place to a place driven by someone's theology. More often then not the changes are subtle and occur over a period of time that most church members don't notice the change and they themselves are drawn in. Hopefully, at some point they get a wake up call and notice that the church they were initially drawn to no longer exists. They will find themselves having to make a decision whether to turn a blind eye, confront the situation or simply walk away from the church.
The downside of walking away from a church is most people never return to any church. They find themselves totally disillusioned with the church. The biggest loss is they connect their hurt from the church to being hurt by God. Most find it impossible to separate God, church and those in charge of God's Church.
As you noted John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
But we need to take a look at Christ's final words to the Disciples on the day He was taken up into Heaven. Those words are in the book of Acts. Chapter 1 verse 8 specifically, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
To be "Born Again" we have to confess our sins, and acknowledge Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. By doing this we are accepting God's plan for our Salvation. Part of that plan is being a witness for Christ here on earth, going back to Acts 1:8.
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Post by demonhunterfan on Oct 27, 2010 4:34:42 GMT -8
Thanks Tom, & Dave, for sharing your thoughts & comments on this. I believe that a lot of us people-- followers of Christ or otherwise-- just have this nature about us that we simply have to complicate things.  Perhaps that is where 'theology' and 'doctrine' come from, and if so, coming from humans, what place, if any, could it have in our being born again into a right relationship with God? I've come to believe that each and every human ever born of the flesh, or ever will, has a relationship with God,(whether they chose to believe it or not) and according to HIM, HE does not wish any of them/us to perish so HE gives each of them/us the choice to make-- whether we will allow ourselves to be born again into The Kingdom or not and thus become one of the 'pre-destined'. I believe, as I've said above, that HE did not create anyone that HE did not want to spend eternity with, from Romans 8:29-30 RSV-- "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.
And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified." I believe HE 'pre-destined' everyone, and in HIS own ways HE has, and will continue to, call-- 'And those whom he predestined he also called...', but as so many people don't like the idea of, or don't realize the dynamics of a relationship, with God or another human, we are required to participate in the relationship if we are to be in, and benefit from, The Relationship. God calls us and we answer-- if we answer rightly, confessing Jesus as our Lord and Savior, then we are 'the elect'. We are doing our part, in The Relationship, to fulfill HIS promise to justify and glorify us, 'the elect', those HE chose from before the beginning-- those who would choose HIM, to believe in HIM. Why would HE make a promise to someone who would not believe in HIM? Would any of us make a promise to someone who does not believe us, or anything we have to say or do? Later and God bless |
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Post by hotrodtom on Oct 29, 2010 17:34:42 GMT -8
Dave and John,
You BOTH nailed it right on the head. ANY doctrine of man is purely that: a doctrine of man, or a religion. Religion is much different than faith. But that is a different discussion. John, you nailed it in the freedom that God gives us to choose His son as our Savior.
The biblical fundamental truth is that God loved us so much the gave US the responsibility whether or not we we accept the fact that we are all born under the curse of sin, that there is NOT ONE who is righteous enough to escape the penalty for that sin, and that the only way we can escape the second death is to believe that Jesus was the ONLY acceptable sacrifice for our sin because he was NOT born under the curse of sin and knew no sin himself, accept him as our redeemer (for we are bought with HIS blood which was shed on Calvary, and without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin), and ask Him to indwell us with His spirit (The Holy Spirit, or Comforter spoken of in Acts before the ascension of Christ).
Simple, straight-forward, and fundamental. No magic, no work required on our behalf, no pre-qualifications. Just as we are is how God wants us to come unto the saving knowledge of His son, Jesus Christ, the anointed Savior.
You cannot be too evil, or sinned too much, or be so unlovable that His work on the cross of Calvary cannot redeem you from an eternity of separation from a truly loving heavenly Father that gave us a method to escape his wrath for an eternity.
His will is that ALL men would turn to the Savior. Red, Black, White, Yellow or Brown. We are ALL precious in his sight because he created everyone of us in His image.
May God richly bless you and keep you. If you have not yet accepted Jesus as your PERSONAL Lord and Savior, why? TODAY is the day of your salvation. Just believe and receive.
In Agape love, brothers.
HRT
(Edit - MAN, I really don't like it when my keyboard acts up. Makes my post look like I am "drunktyping""
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Perhaps that is where 'theology' and 'doctrine' come from, and if so, coming from humans, what place, if any, could it have in our being born again into a right relationship with God?